Hacks Creators Talk Spin-Off Chances, That Perfect Judy And Barbra Duet, And Why We Didn't See DJ's Reaction To Deborah's Illness

Spoilers below for the series finale of "Hacks"!

Deborah Vance and Ava Daniels' swan song was one for the ages: A platonic love story that was a rollercoaster of ups, down, laughs, battles — you name it.

In the series finale of "Hacks," Deborah (Jean Smart) asked Ava (Hannah Einbinder) to join her for the last trip of her life. Her cancer had come back, so after spending some time in Paris, she planned on seeking an assisted suicide in Switzerland. Her decision spawned a flurry of emotions in Ava, as she chose to accompany her boss on the farewell journey, while also trying her damndest to convince her otherwise in between bites of French bread, clubbing with hard drugs, bargain shopping, and seeing the sights. ("The Mona Lisa is mid?!")

In the episode's last few minutes, one final riff session between the ladies made all the difference. After the women pitched each other jokes about dying, Deborah had an a-ha moment: Cancer would give her another hour of material. More stories to tell on the stage. And with that, she changed her mind and scheduled treatment, with Ava promising to help her friend write the new special. 

Now that "Hacks" is officially over, creators Paul W. Downs, Lucia Aniello, and Jen Statsky talked to TVLine to spill on everything that happened in the HBO Max comedy's fifth and final season.

TVLINE | Was it emotional saying goodbye to Deborah and Ava from behind the camera? 
LUCIA ANIELLO | I'm still in denial. I'm gonna start writing fanfic. [Laughs]

JEN STATSKY | Lucia keeps breaking episodes. She gets up every day. She puts the cards up. She's in full denial. [Laughs]

TVLINE | Tell me a little bit about the last day on set. What was the last thing you shot and what did it feel like to wrap for good?
PAUL W. DOWNS | We really had a bunch of different finals, because we had our final day in Las Vegas with our crew, we had one in LA, and then we went to Paris. The very last day was in the Louvre and it was only 12 people. It was Jean and Hannah and then 10 crew members, and so it was really intimate and really powerful to be in such an iconic place. At the end, all alone, we were shooting while the museum was open to the public, but by the very end, we were in the gallery all alone, and it was really emotional. We had a giant, tearful group hug, and, luckily there's footage and photos of it.

ANIELLO | The actual last thing we shot isn't in the cut, but we are hoping to be able to release that at some point.

TVLINE | I've heard rumblings about a possible physical media release for the series... I'm a big lover of physical media.
STATSKY | We're trying to make that happen.

TVLINE | Were any other endings considered or any smaller elements that were left on the cutting room floor?
STATSKY | This was always the way that we had planned it. As we've said, when we initially pitched the show, we knew where we were headed for the end, for where these characters would land. This was always the plan and this was always where we wanted to end them, so no, no other crazy alt-ending is in existence either shot or in our brains, because this is always what we felt was the most fitting end for these two characters.

TVLINE | What was the genesis of this ending? How'd you arrive there and how did it help you set up this big European trip the ladies wind up taking?
ANIELLO | We've actually been laying groundwork for it since Season 1 when [Deborah] says, "Oh, the progesterone packets that I sell at QVC, people get cancer from them," and so it's something we've been seeding for a long time. And there's been little moments that she's been sick. We see it even in the end of Season 4 when she's coughing at the Las Vegas store, a little souvenir shop. And then this season, obviously you find out in Episode 7 and Episode 8 when she's thinking about what she wants to do, she wants to go on vacation. At that point we feel she does already know. Episode 9, she's like, "I have to do [my hour] now." That's also a nod to the fact that she knows that this is happening. So, it's been something that we've been seeing since the very, very beginning.

We try to examine everything we can that makes sense for these characters and for us. How somebody wants to end their life with dignity feels like a pretty big part of life and not something that a lot of shows do, and it felt like something that our show could do. Also, when you get to really know the character of Deborah over five seasons the way the audience has, I think you also have to acknowledge that control has been such a big part of her life. And so the idea that she would want to end it on her way also feels very real, but then we were able to reflect back onto the pilot and the idea that working with Ava and laughing with Ava and joking with Ava gives her new material that makes her excited to live again. And so that's true for both the pilot and the finale.

TVLINE | We see DJ at the opening of the Diva, but we never see DJ's reaction to her mother's illness or Deb's decision to end her life in Europe. Why is that?
DOWNS | We did talk about that. We turned that over a bit, but it was really something that, in our minds, she had her time and her discussion with DJ off-screen, because really, as Lucia said, the show has been about these two women from very different generations and the way in which they come at the the world in very different ways. And so for us, the ultimate debate is about life and death. This was the ultimate grist for them, and actually, right to life is something that we feel like Ava would normally be like, "I'm a huge advocate for ending your life with dignity, and I believe in assisted suicide," but when it comes to someone you love, it's so different. So we just felt like it was the most poignant and honestly the most heightened version of what these characters have done, which is wrestle with ideas and bring to each other a new perspective that makes them better.

So not only did we want to do that, but as Lucia said, getting them to a point where Deborah is reminded about the thing, the reason that she gets up in the morning and making it all sort of boil down to: The people that you laugh with and the material that you make is the thing that makes you wanna fight another day. We were like, "Well, that feels like it." That feels like a good way to make this full circle. It's like the pilot, but just on such a different level.

TVLINE | Season 5 was all about Deborah solidifying her legacy, but what beats were most important to you when crafting the season?
ANIELLO | Ava's realization over the season, and the reckoning and developing of the show "Who's Making Dinner." To be able to have her know that now Deborah's legacy, her story, [is] in Ava's hands is, I think, a really beautiful thing. To be able to be like, "She's now my muse," beyond what we see in the show, was something we really wanted to do.

We were really excited to have Marcus come back and be part of a brick and mortar future for Deborah, and also part of the future of Las Vegas in this world. We also really wanted to wrap up DJ's story in a hopefully emotionally impactful way, and then we also wanted to keep people on their toes and have new things and be exciting and fun and different. So in that way, you don't want to just do a victory lap season. You don't want to just do a tying-up-in-a-bow season. You also want it to still feel like its own season, and I think that [it's] a season that's a lot of fun, but also, as you know, heads into more intense territory as the series ends, and I think that's fitting for "Hacks."

TVLINE | Paul, obviously you're a creative on the show, but your acting over the course of this run deserves props as well, especially what you've accomplished with Megan [Stalter, who plays Kayla]. What scenes with Megan stand out to you in this season?
DOWNS | I do love the scene where we're fighting over the headset mic, and we're convincing Latitude of why we should actually take the helm. It was also really touching to get back to Latitude in the end. They're back in their same place, and even though Kayla can take her dad's office, she wants to be at her old desk. That also felt really full circle and on the day, really moving to me because we've lived with these characters for a long time, and so it feels so real to us. And Meg, I thought, was so excellent this season. Not just in the moments when she is hard funny because she is so often, but also those more emotional moments that she and I got to share. Those more nostalgic, sentimental moments like taking our old desks. I don't know. It was really an all-time great moment for me.

TVLINE | When you were initially casting the role of Kayla, what was it about Megan that jumped out at you?
ANIELLO | I think there's something about Meg that is really funny where she's able to be both very high status and yet bubbling and low status at the same time, which gives her immediately so much to do and so much to play. And what is so great about Paul as Jimmy, I think, is that he's the straight man to Kayla, but also has a way of being extraordinarily funny as a straight man, which is actually, no offense to Meg, the harder job. Historically, we know it's a harder job. And so to be able to be like, "Oh, they both can be funny individually as these characters, but then together, supersonically funny," I think, was something that we just loved experiencing Season 1. Then [it] made it easier and more fun to write as the series went on.

TVLINE | In an entertainment world that's so driven by IPs and universes, is there maybe a chance for a Jimmy/Kayla spin-off? Maybe something that's like "Call My Agent!" meets "Extras"?
DOWNS | What a perfect pitch!

STATSKY | What an amazing... that's a perfect logline. Sign me up!

ANIELLO | Nick, that's awesome!

DOWNS | Is HBO on? They're on, OK! I would do anything with Meg, and I would love to continue doing this. I think we're really excited to explore new worlds, and we also feel like it's really hard to want to do anything else when we feel like the series ended in kind of the perfect way. So it does feel, not to be precious about it, but it almost feels terrifying to do anything when you feel like you have this beautiful little thing. It's hard because the way you just described it, I'm like, "I'm seated, I'm watching that." I would love to do that, and I would love to watch that. It'll be the torture of the rest of our lives. [Laughs]

TVLINE | Can you tell me a bit about how the whole "Amazing Race" episode came to be?
ANIELLO | If I would've had my way... [Laughs]

STATSKY | Yeah, so the "Amazing Race" episode was a long time coming for "Hacks," and yes, I think we negotiated Lucia down to one episode. At one point, it was a full season of "Amazing Race," 10 episodes.

ANIELLO | You guys would've gotten a Season 6 out of it!

STATSKY | We're such huge fans of "The Amazing Race," and it's, again, been in the plan since the beginning. In Season 2, Deborah and Ava are watching "Amazing Race" on Deborah's couch in her bedroom. So, it was always something that we wanted to do, and it just felt like something that DJ specifically would be really impacted by, and it would be a huge part of her sobriety journey. Kaitlin Olson is so gifted in that she is this amazing physical comedian, so that obviously lent itself to "The Amazing Race" and the story beats we did there. But she's also such an incredibly gifted, dramatic actress, and so for us, it was always the perfect episode to wrap up DJ's story and send her off with dignity and give her this thing that, since the very first season, one of the most important things to DJ is the D'Jewelry, is QVC, and ultimately is her mom's approval and seeing her as someone worth putting on QVC. So, it's this really full circle journey for DJ since Season 1. We just always felt like [it was the] perfect way to do it. "The Amazing Race" producers were so incredible about helping us and making it feel authentic and real. We hope fans of both shows are satisfied by it.

TVLINE | The series ends with the song "Get Happy/Happy Days Are Here Again," a duet by Barbra Streisand and Judy Garland. Why did you choose that track to go out with?
ANIELLO | Yeah, the "Happy Days" live recording — and just to note, the clapping at the end is from the recording.

DOWNS | It's from Judy Garland's show that aired on CBS. We're always listening and we love music. We have a brilliant music supervisor, Matt Biffa, but we're also always looking for music and we love cinematic sounds. So when that occurred to us, which was several seasons ago, we started to get the clearance team on it to be like, "This feels exactly right." It's a duet, it's a sort of a passing of the torch between Judy and Barbra. It's about these two women. There's also something about both of their voices, but Judy's in particular, I think, that's so hopeful and it's about being happy, but there's also so much beneath that. There is so much emotion in her voice, which to me was really emblematic of hopefully what "Hacks" is, which is a comedy with a lot of jokes per minute, but there's a lot of big feelings too. So it just felt like the exact right song for the end because ultimately, we feel like the ending is really hopeful and really happy. As big of a feeling as it might give you throughout the episode. So anyway, we begged and pleaded and luckily it was clearable, and so we've had it for a while and it was really nice to have that.

ANIELLO | Even just the timing. We knew, "This is where the camera's coming down, on this part of the song, and this is how long the ending is gonna be." It really helped us map out exactly what that shot should be. So it was also nice to have that on both ends, in Paris and in Las Vegas, to make sure that the timing of the shot was perfect. And Nick, I think you think it's perfect! [Laughs]

DOWNS | We played it during the shot, so Jean and Hannah heard it, and I think it informed them in a major way, too.